Movable Cripes!
Joelle said in the early morning on September 18, 2007 while listening to Art Pepper
C.Y.A. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein do not reflect those of Moxie Design Studios™ as a whole. Just me.... the girl ready to throw her laptop out the window.
Considering we just wrote a book about blogging, I don’t often smack talk about various blog platforms. I’ll rally around my fave, but diplomacy, professional courtesy and respect keeps me from being too public about my occasional irks with various software. Sadly, that ends right now.
When I first started blogging, I used Movable Type 1.something, like most others that weren’t on Blogger. I think I made it into the 2.0 version somewhere before Expression Engine graced me with one of a thousand free copies of their new software in May 2004. I used MT because that’s what was available and it’s what my friends used. It was the hot property at the time and while it frustrated me sometimes, it was “all there was” (sort of) and well… that’s just what people used. I liked it because I didn’t know anything different.
Since I started using Expression Engine and love it so much, I don’t work with MT as much as I used to. Depending on the client’s needs, we usually recommend Expression Engine or Wordpress. It’s rare that there’s a project that one of those platforms can’t handle. But if a client has MT already and wishes to stay with it, we will happily upgrade them to the latest released version and work with that.
Well, it used to be happily. This release of MT4 has been nothing but a pain in the keister. It seems quite buggy, it’s slow and we’re still “rebuilding”? Still? They’ve changed the term to “publishing” now so we don’t know that it’s the same thing, but it still takes up to 20 minutes sometimes to rebuild a blog that has over 1000 entries. Why? WHY are we still rebuilding? I know they’ve made it “more flexible” by adding static or dynamic publishing, but even doing what we do, the archiving and template functionality of MT seems extraneous and unnecessarily complicated. The new interface in MT4 is really pretty (kudos on that!), but there are WAY too many clicks to get to what you want and it’s just not very straightforward. You can put lipstick on a pig…
My other big beef is the community. I’ve never had a satisfactory experience with the MT forums, documentation or tech support. Once last year Kathy had an issue with a client’s MT install and she contacted MT’s tech support, who in turn, practically accused her of using unauthorized copies of the software because Kathy didn’t have that client’s license number in her Typekey “account”. Well, that would be because it was the client’s license number and that onus would be on them. It would be in their account — we’re just the ones hired to ask the questions. It turns out the client had a paid license and we probably should have had that at the ready, but there was no question of whether or not the license belonged to the client or any concern about whether or not their product was causing Kathy problems… their only action was to imply that we, professionals in this industry since 2003, skirted the system. Give me a break! The client ended up having a paid version of the software, but the license itself was not our responsibility and we were just inquiring about a simple challenge with the software for our client. Because Kathy wasn’t the official license holder, we were told to use the MT community forums, as though it were free.
Yeah. 
Now, I can totally appreciate that they don’t want to pay someone to provide tech support for their free products. I totally get that. But, compared to the EE community forums, the MT forums are ridiculous. There are so many knowledgeable, friendly and helpful people in the EE community, if I have a problem, my first stop is the forums and inevitably, someone helps me or at least tries. Most of the time on the MT forums, I’m completely ignored (and I know I’m not the only one — I’ve heard this from other designers, too).
I also feel that MT relies too heavily on 3rd party add-ons like plug-ins in a community that offers little to no support. In developing a site for my client, almost everything I wanted to do that EE (and often Wordpress) already had built in, I had to go hunt down a half-assed, outdated plug-in that someone wrote and may or may not still support. The plug-in also may or may not be compatible for whatever buggy version of MT they’ve released that day.
I am in the process of putting the finishing touches on really cute site (if I do say so myself!) for a very sweet client on a timeline that didn’t take MT4’s drama into account. What should have taken me a day (two… tops!) to develop took me almost three weeks and stripped me of my will to work with MT ever again. I moved her to EECore (the free version) like I should have done from day one. I hated not meeting my deadline and I hated that I had to make my client wait because MT released a platform that wasn’t ready for prime time (in my opinion). In the future, if I client mentions MT, I will do whatever I can to convince them switch to a more stable platform, one with strong community support, thorough documentation and no delays. Like Expression Engine.
Ok, ok, Lisa, like Wordpress, too. 
I really, really wanted to love MT4. I respect Six Apart and was honored to be a judge in their Style Contest last year. I really like the people I’ve worked with from Six Apart and/or people I’ve gotten to know via this blog that work there, like Lilia and others. I really, really like Vox (whose praises we sing in the book, by the way). But Movable Type and it’s occasionally more frustrating offspring, Typepad? I shake my behind-schedule fist at you! Both of them. Twice.
This may actually be helpful for our potential panel at SXSW. I know there are people out there who still love MT, so in the interest of professional curiosity, what blog platform do you use? Why do you use it? What do you like about it? Or hate? Do tell!
Moxie Design Studios™
from NY
*kicks MT in the nads*
from West Palm Beach, FL • Cocktail: Champagne Bellini
My biggest beef is not that the latest public release is buggy, although that is a problem too...its that SixApart stopped supporting the forums altogether. It’s a “fend for yourself” atmosphere and 9 out of 10 times you don’t get the help you need. No one follows up on posted issues so you get a lot of “XYZ is broken help!” and a list of responses that say “me too...anyone?” and nothing ever seems to be addressed.
I think MT4 could be a great product if they had a better support system.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@Kathy: Agreed! I think the new interface is slick looking, albeit it too many clicks and a little vague. And I understand why they have rebuilding… some people want static, hard files of their entries. That’s just how it’s got to be done, I guess. But, in that case, they should make the whole dynamic thing easier to understand and write their docs for NORMAL PEOPLE and not ubergeeks, assuming that everyone knows <$MTWhatTheHellIsThis$>.
It’s got potential to be a really great program. I just feel like they’ve abandoned it, kind of. Like, “Ok, we’ve made this new version… here, fend for yourselves.” They’ve made it open source, I think assuming that the community will rally around it like Wordpress, but… not that I can tell. Google searches brought up little to no useful information, so the ‘community’ can’t be rallying that much.
Ok, you convinced me. I haven’t liked the path MT has taken in the past few years. The forums and response time used to be great, and (I may be the only one, but) I loved MT-blacklist. They haven’t had a decent spam blocker in years, and I hate making people register.
So I’ll try EE. I didn’t know they had a free version. Thanks!
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@Tanya: you’re welcome! They do have a free version and I rarely have any spam. Very rarely. And usually when I do, it’s just one or two. Welcome to EE, you will love it.
from Portland, ME
Joelle, this was the funniest thing I have read this week and Mel’s comment there had be cracking up. Nice read, glad it was finally said.
from Laguna Hills, CA • Cocktail: Cosmopolitan
Was on Blogger for a bit before I switched over to Wordpress. I like it just fine so far.
from Orlando • Cocktail: Sit-Down Straw-Rita
I tried MT for about 1 week and switched to Wordpress, where I’ve been for 3 years now. Before that I just handcoded my blog.
I tried the free EE, but just couldn’t get into it. The layout flexibility was nice but I didn’t care for the backend much. Maybe I’ll give it another try sometime.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@zengrrl: do try it again. They’ve recently changed the interface.
it’s much prettier now.
@SAP: Yes, I couldnt’ get into Wordpress for a long time, but I’m warming to it.
@Paul: who loves ya, baby? WE DO!
from Chattanooga, TN
I switched to Wordpress after using MT for several years. I hated all the complexity of MT combined with the lack of features… then even with MT Blacklist I was getting hundreds of spam comments a day and finally got sick of it. I’ll never go back!
from Virginia Beach, VA • Cocktail: Calypso Cooler
I started out doing everything in HTML, then I used Blogger. From Blogger I moved to MT, but only used the MT for about 3 months. Then I used EE and have not looked back. I have been using EE since 2005.
I’m obviously in the minority here, but I’ve been using MT since I started blogging in 2002. That said, I will totally admit that there may be better out there, but I’m too lazy to switch. MT is familiar to me and I don’t want to bother to learn a whole new system. Plus, nothing about MT has bothered me enough to motivate me the switch. I can definitely understand how most people would be lost in MT’s template tags, but as a programmer they don’t bother me a bit.
FWIW, I just upgraded to MT4 over the weekend (from 3.2), and found myself surprised and pleased that the process went smoothly. There are definitely some bugs and some plug-ins that don’t work, but so far none of that effects what I need to do with my blog.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@geeky: well, that’s good to hear.
I did think the upgrade went very smoothly… the only challenge was when I wanted to change existing templates to work with the new structure and all this malarky. Plus, I had to use some plug-ins for this project that MT didn’t offer standard, so that caused problems, as the plug-ins weren’t compatible with the latest version of MT.
I know it’s got to be a decent program for many. It was for me at one point. I just don’t find it “all that” compared to what’s out there.
I started out my blogging (before the word “blog” was coined) by coding the HTML by hand. Then, I saw what MT was doing, and thought that was a completely stupid way to have what is essentially a database-driven thing, so I coded my own CMS and used it for years. Then, the MoxieChicks and about 3 other designers I know recommended EE (and one WP recommendation), and I didn’t care that my blog CMS was coded by me (it used to be a badge of distinction), so I made the switch to EE. Very happy with it. I need to get into it more, as some people think I could make some cash making stuff for the EE community.
from U.S.
Damn you too? I used the MT forums back in the early 2000s, when I had a q, I got more judgment than help from the MT forums peeps. I didn’t like MT because it was too hard to figure out if you’re not an…
1. web designer and 2. a programming geek.
And I hate it when geeks think normal people should know things that they do and then feel superior and make you feel stupid if you don’t know it. Ugh.
Of course they know things I don’t because it interests them, programming and hacking with software isn’t an interest of mine. I want to blog without it getting all complicated and go on with my life.
I’ve tried mt (it was my first blogging software), then blogger, wordpress, livejournal, xanga, myspace (the worst of them all!), and finally I found vox. So now that’s what I use. I like that its a social network, you can upload stuff like pics, photos, books, music, etc. Its free (ads are ok), and you can change your design as you please. I don’t want to pay to blog.
Maybe a domain, but not to pay for a blog software tool. To me its just a waste. btw, I was thinking of using typepad, and from this reading this post, glad that I didn’t.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@moxierain: I love Vox. That’s a great program right there…
I never used Movable Type for many reasons, some that you’ve named. I love Love LOVE Rick Ellis and I was one of the original users of pmachine pro before he distributed Expression Engine. Rick and his team are helpful, responsive and put out a great product. Plus, he’s just a nice guy. I never had a question or problem that someone didn’t solve within an hour or so. I use Wordpress now, but that’s only because I don’t have time to teach myself EE, even though I have a free copy as well. It’s on my “to do list,” especially after reading this post.
I thought I was the only one that felt like a complete idiot every time I asked for help from the MT Forums. What MoxieRain said - exactly.
I’m still currently with MT, but have been considering the switch to EE for a year or so now. I’m just not exactly sure how to do it. Hopefully their forums will be much more helpful in the sense that you know, someone answers my questions.
from bremen, germany • Cocktail: gin & tonic
i never used MT either. i blogged at diaryland.com for a while and when i got my own domain started using WP pretty much right away. LOVED it from day one. i’m always nervous about changing to a new software [even updating to a new version] because i just don’t think i understand it well enough to manage any problems that may occur. [but hey, i’ll have your book soon, maybe that’ll help and clarify some things for me
].
the free version of EE sounds VERY interesting but a) see above about my fear of change and b) i just found out that you can print your blog and that company doesn’t support EE ...
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@trish: yes, Rick is great! So is the entire EE team. “The Boys” we call them, even though there are some girls in there now.
When they asked us to be part of their advisory board, we were really honored. I don’t know how much we’ve “advised"… hehe. But we’re happy to be a part of it!
@kim: That’s a pretty neat service! I know a lot of people really like WP and I am warming to it, but EE is still my #1. I’ve found a few services that don’t ‘support’ EE for their products like Hipcast and others, but eventually, they’ll see the light.
@Annastazia: it’s really easy. The Documentation provides step by step instructions for installing EE and there is an MT import utility that allows you to port over your entries. The forums are awesome… if you’re sick of MT, definitely give EE a try.
good luck!
from Ontario, Canada
I remember printing out the MT manual way back when and madly flipping through it trying to figure out how to use it. When I found Wordpress it was such a relief.
And prior to that I used Greymatter lol
from New Hampster
I was an HTML’er, a Blogger, a Greymatter’er, a Movable Typer, a pMachine Pro’er and now, finally, an EE’er.
I was a wicked early adopter of EE and I have never ever had a single complaint with any of it. I absolutely hated that MT was built on perl (who writes in perl anymore?!?!) and required rebuilding. The <$MTCode$> COMPLETELY sucked and the documentation was lame. Like the others have said - even in the early days when Mina and her husband (Ben?) were active in the forums, they still sucked. The EE forum peeps are always ready to help.
I own two EE commercial licenses and I’ve lost track of all the people I’ve recommended it to. EE forever, baby! (At least until Ellis Labs releases their next CMS...)
from Finland
MT was the first cms I used (and I guess my first cms love), if I remember correctly - but then EE came out and I gave it a twirl. I’ve been going back and forth between the two ever since on my many domains (I’ve had licenses for both too!). There are things I like better about MT and others I like better about EE. I’m currently on MT4 because curiosity got the better of me (and I love their new look, and am getting used to the template system), but I have been thinking of trying out EE again, just to see…
I think for me this is a never ending battle… I gave Wordpress a try once as well and didn’t care much for it, but from what I understand they have a great community, as does EE, and I completely agree that MT’s forums sucks donkey balls.
The conclusion for me, I think, is I’m still waiting for that perfect cms that’ll do everything but massage my feet…
Man, for someone that started on blogger and then Greymatter (before there even was an MT) I’m embarrassed to admit that I’m still on MT 2.something because I quit daily blogging right about the time Wordpress and EE came on the scene and just never bothered to use / learn something new. Now I’ve been out of the loop so long, and behind a camera for so long, I think my brain would melt if I tried to install another piece of software and merge a design to it… I’m probably going to have to hire someone if’n I ever upgrade.
from Crazy, USA
I seriously haven’t hit the MT forums in a long, long time - - why bother when the support isn’t there? I’ve been utterly spoiled by the WordPress community of users - - the WordPress software is free and the support from the community, you just can’t beat.
MT? NotSoMuch.
EE? Having recently taken on that beast.. I have to say I was very happy to have found such helpful members in the EE community & forums, as well. Very excited users with a very helpful base.
Leaves me thinking that someone should pull the thorn out of MT’s paw. SixApart could learn a thing or two about community from either EE or WP (well, especially WP, but I digress).
I tried to use MT when it first came out. I was coding my blog by hand...back in the day before a blog was actually known as such.
Within minutes of attempting to install MT, I trashed it in frustration and went back to my hand-coded ways. And then WordPress came out. I’ve been using WP since the first release and I’ve never looked back.
Although, I do still have a TON of entries I need to bring over from 2000 on…
from Virginia
Oh, Joelle! Between MT and my crappy hosting service, I’ve not made your life easy, have I? I feel awful for being the cause of so much frustration. I will make it up to you.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@kristina: It’s SO not your fault! It’s MT’s fault. And ADT Hosting’s fault. Don’t you worry, we’ll get it all worked out.
from Oakland, CA
It really hurts when I see testimonials like this. Really - its like daggers to the heart. I can’t express to you how sorry I am that your MT4 experience was not a positive one. I want to list of the positive testimonials people have provided, but I know that at the end of the day the only experience that matters is your own.
I don’t want this comment to seem like a rebuttal, but I do think it is important to directly address some of the concerns you have raised.
At the top of the list is community. I will be the first to admit, the Movable Type community is something that needs attention. A big focus of the MT4 release was in fact the community and how we could revitalize it. That is a harder task than it sounds as you very well know. The community will not come to life based upon a promise and upon faith that they will be rewarded for their loyalty and contribution - we have to meet them half way… MORE than half way. We have to meet them all the way. And step one is giving them a product they can truly be proud of again.
I love MT4 - more then any other product I have ever worked on or contributed to in even a tangential way. But I do know that it is just the first step in many in rebuilding trust with the community. A first, but critical step - because with the release we have to clearly demonstrate our commitment to this product, its features and the well being of the community.
I firmly believe that we have done that. Now we turn our attention to our second step: fulfilling out commitment to an open source version of Movable Type that will be Free and unencumbered by proprietary licenses and limitations. After that, it is about bringing even more amazing features to the platform and dramatically expanding the possibilities of what you can build and easily manage using this software.
I think you can look at the plugin directory first as the first signs that we are on the right track. It shows that Movable Type 4 is really catching on with developers. Never before have we seen so many new and substantive plugins contributed by our community members.
I might also point to our ProNet mailing list - that too is showing not only signs of life, but it has become once again a thriving community of professionals, designers, developers and consultants helping each other, sharing ideas, and providing feedback to Six Apart.
As for what’s next for the community? I have my eyes set upon our forums because a product without support from the community cannot scale and cannot meet the expectations of its users. There is help on our forums, but it is under staffed. It is time to turn that around.
Believe it or not I think we are on track there as well. I think though the best form of support we can provide is the kind you can provide yourself. In other words, hopefully we will lessen the need for forums and support in general by providing excellent documentation. One gentleman you will find in our forums, Su, for example has spear headed an effort to greatly enhance our template tag documentation. With his help the Movable Type development and product teams are completely rewriting and updating all of our template tag documentation - which is no small task considering that there are over 100 new tags that MT4 has introduced. Our focus here is on providing working examples so that people can put knowledge to use directly as opposed to backwards engineering solutions from opaque technical specs. To help us we have allowed our community members to attach notes to the documentation to facilitate the learning and sharing process and you already see lots of people contributing there.
You know what, I have been typing for a while and no doubt I have lost most readers at this point. Suffice it to say that I could go on forever. In closing I will reiterate how sorry I am you had a poor experience. If there is *anything* I can do to help you in the future, please let me know.
Byrne Reese
Product Manager, Movable Type
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@Byrne: Thank you so much for your response. That gives me hope. Please know in our book, we do promote MT as being a fabulous system and discuss it’s merits. We really, really want to love it again. I used to love MT, but I just feel like the program itself makes everything more complicated than it needs to be.
But it’s nothing personal! hehe.
We love Six Apart and really, really, like Vox. We sing it’s praises in our book from the rooftops. And of course, we really do like all the folks at Six Apart.
I’m sorry that I daggered your heart.
And I do really appreciate your ‘non-rebuttal’. You’re entitled! I seriously went off, so you’re welcome to voice your side.
Thanks for stopping by!