Hi, Welcome to the Internet
Joelle said before her coffee on September 25, 2007
This is a tough subject and may not make me very popular. It could set off a rash of “But what about the children!?” which I’m really not prepared for, but my morning trip to Flickr left me absolutely flabbergasted. Yes, I’m talking about this photo. And let me just say before I begin that I mean no disrespect to anyone who has had their photos stolen. I can completely understand how violated you must feel.
I’m not shocked because of the theft of children’s photos. I’m appalled, but I wouldn’t say I’m shocked. If you put your kid’s photos on the Internet for the public to see, there’s a chance they will be taken. That is just a fact of life and I feel like some parents just fell off the cyber-turnip truck. This is not new information. The world is full of pervs. PERVS! Lots of sick, deranged, twisted, miscreant pedophiles out there. This is not news.
But, I am shocked that a fairly petty tactic like this is being used in an attempt to dissuade them. I may sound like a jerk here, but I don’t agree with this at all. It comes off more like a “turf war” and less like what it’s really about — the theft of kids pictures. The tags on the original photo say, “If I see this on Orkut, I will see you in court.” Well, why not take them to court for the photos they’ve already stolen instead of baiting them?
I’ve never been on Orkut. In fact, I’d forgotten it even existed until just now and let me just be clear: I do not agree with Orkut’s members stealing people’s Flickr photos. But what I do have a problem with is the way this protest was presented. It comes off more like a rumble in West Side Story than a fight against scam artists, pervs and photo thieves.
From the original photo:
THIS NEEDS TO STOP AND ORKUT NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN!!!!
CONSIDER THIS POST A PETITION AND FEEL FREE TO SPEAK YOUR MIND ON THIS SUBJECT ...
EVEN IF YOU DON"T SPEAK YOUR MIND PLEASE MAKE A COMMENT TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT ...
ORKUT USERS THINK FLICKR USERS ARE A JOKE… I THINK THEY ARE MESSING WITH THE WRONG PEOPLE… WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT????
WE NEED TO UNITE AS A COMMUNITY TO HELP PROTECT THE CHILDREN OF FLICKR…
PLEASE HELP US GIVE THESE CHILDREN A VOICE THAT CAN BE HEARD!
PLEASE REPOST THIS IMAGE OR CREATE YOUR OWN THAT SAY’S “SHUT ORKUT DOWN!” BE SURE TO INCLUDE A LINK TO THIS POST ... THE MORE PEOPLE THAT KNOW ABOUT THIS THE BETTER!!!
PLEASE LEAVE A COMMENT AND FAVE THIS IMAGE TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR OUR FLICKR CHILDREN!!!
This is where they lost me. I was all good until the part about Flickr users being a joke and showing Orkut they’re “messing with the wrong people”. It’s not JUST Orkut that does this. MySpace does it, creepy mommy communities with Munchausen nutjobs do it, magazines, photographers and other websites besides Orkut do it. (I feel like I should say “Let’s do it, let’s fall in love” right here, but I’ll refrain). I just don’t see how this is effective. I was on board until it became a “Down with Okrut!” rally, you know? It’s not just Orkut.
I also take issue with the “help protect the children of Flickr” stuff. Do you feel the music swelling right here? Where’s Susan Sarandon when you need her? I have wonderful friends with gorgeous children and it absolutely makes me livid that their photos have been stolen, but (and I’m sorry to my friends with kids who want to kick me in the head right now) don’t put your photos publicly for people to view them. I know it should be a happy, shiny world full of bunnies and kittens and rainbows, where we can put adorable photos of our children on the Internet naked if we want with no repercussions, but sadly, that’s just not how it is. It’s not. Let’s use common sense.
This is the part where someone might say, “But, Woman with No Children! It doesn’t matter what your privacy settings are, they can just take a screen capture!” Well, you may be right, but how do you propose they even bring up your photo to take a screen capture if they’re not your “friend”? If your privacy settings are “friends” or “family” or both, the only way someone can take a screen capture is if they are your friend. They’re the only ones who can see it. Now, I do know that privacy doesn’t mean much because even completely private photos can be seen if you right click on the image and do “View Image” in Firefox. You can copy the link and send it to someone else and it can be seen just like it was public. But for you to be able to do that… well, you’d have to be someone’s friend/family first. See? You can’t take a screen capture if you can’t see the image. Change your privacy settings, people. Like I said, I know it should be a free and safe place to post pictures of your kids. It should, I totally agree. But it’s NOT, it’s the Internet and you knew that when you hit “post”. Let’s take responsibility.
Our designs are stolen all the time. Yes, it pisses me off and yes, I go off about it. I totally respect that this mom is hoppin’ mad. I would be, too. Sure, I’ll blog about it, but then I address the person doing the stealing and I don’t rally a whole damn community behind me to attack another community.
Now, some people are professional photographers and I do feel their pain. They’re in a tough situation as they need to show their wares publicly in order to get business. I love Robyn and I know she’s had to go through some major stuff to protect her images. But, in doing so, she fought to copyright her photos, she handled the matter in a legal and ethical fashion. She didn’t send a squadron of Flickr users to egg Orkut’s house.
I feel like I need to reiterate that I’m not defending these sickos who are stealing people’s photos of their children (or anything for that matter). Not at ALL. But can we be reasonable adults for a minute? What’s going to be the outcome of this? Why not start a proper petition, have your attorney draft a letter to the head of Orkut, solicit your local government, go to your local news (doesn’t everyone have a “troubleshooter” or some consumer watchdog type reporter in their town?), and focus on directing attention to the issue of your photos being stolen and the sickos stealing them and not just one of the communities that happens to display your stolen photos. I do agree that it should be addressed with Orkut, but I don’t know that this is the most effective way.
The way it’s positioned, I feel like the sign the girl is holding should read “Flickr RULES! Orkut DROOLS!” for all the point it’s really getting across.
Moxie Design Studios™
from Virginia Beach, VA • Cocktail: Calypso Cooler
I actually agree with you here. I put hundreds of pictures of my kids online. In fact the whole reason I started a blog was to update out of town family and friends on our kids. I have learned to make the pictures of my kids in the tub or in their underwear private. I know there are pervs out there - but that is what it is, I cannot stop that.
I am sure there are some that I have missed - but whatever. I keep a lot of them public, because I do not want my family to have to create accounts to see them - I want it as easy as possible for them. If someone steals my photos, it is what I have to accept, because of the CHOICE that I made to keep them public. If you do not want to accept that, then you should have made the choice to make them private!
I agree with you!
from West Palm Beach, FL • Cocktail: Champagne Bellini
I just don’t understand why anyone is surprised. It’s the Internet. People steal. This is new?
Of course I don’t AGREE with people who steal but let’s not give them something TO steal. These are KIDS we’re talking about here… if you don’t protect your children’s photos then you are bound to be victim of theft or worse. You can’t just leave your car running somewhere with $500 cash on the windshield and expect no one to drive away with it.
Again, its horrible and needs to be addressed, but this method isn’t going to stop people from stealing.
I agree with you on this as well, Joelle. Is it right that people steal these photos? No. Is there anything you can do to stop it? Not really. Is this a problem with just Orkut? Hardly, in fact you’ll find lots of photos everywhere (even on *gasp* Flickr!) that are stolen, for everything from harmless to evil purposes. Did this post on Flickr become a “Flickr vs. Orkut” distribe? Yeah, after reading it, I think so.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
I just read this comment by the owner of the photo. This at least seems like a step in a better direction. I like the idea of notifying media about it, though I still think directing them to that particular post may cause it to be dismissed because of the way it’s presented. But that’s just me.
This seems a bit more dignified.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
The negative attention Flickr receives for this kind of thing really irks me. Just yesterday I was watching a video on CNN about a girl who had her photo taken by a friend and posted on Flickr. Apparently Virgin Mobile in Australia took the photo from Flickr and is now using it in an ad campaign that is potentially offensive (at least to the subject of the photo), without her permission. Flickr is in no way at fault for that incident OR for the one you just mentioned. Flickr is above all a photo sharing site that gives you plenty of tools to control who you share your photos with. Once your photos are made public, Flickr has no more control over what happens to them than you do.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@geeky: I totally agree. And when did Flickr become like myspace with all the mob mentality and awards and bling and crap? I remember when it was just a place we put our photos so our friends could see. I’ve learned a lot and been super inspired by Flickr as a community, but the a growing number of the members are starting to bug me.
from The Detective Agency.
Wait...people actually USE Orkut?
But in all seriousness, I am shocked when people put public photos of their kids online. Pretty much everyone I know with a kid under the age of 8 posts those friends/family only.
I understand she’s mad, but you’re right, it seems like she’s more interested in starting a turf war rather than dealing with the issue that her daughter’s face has fake profiles and Orkut. And instead of handling this in an appropriate manner, it seems like she’s opened Pandora’ Box instead - she’s now spread her daughter’s photo EVERYwhere, and you know that hooligans (damn you kids, get off my lawn!) are going to posting even more fake profiles because they think it’s funny. Thus spreading the image to more pervs everywhere. Nice job!
from Northridge, CA
oh wow. I didnt realize that orkut still existed. smh.
THis is a sad state of affairs.
i can’t believe that people actually allow this to happen. :(
from The Detective Agency.
But the act of putting your information online allows it to happen. Like Joelle, I am NOT defending pervs or jackasses and what they do. But we have control over stuff like this. If you don’t want the general public knowing what your kids look like (or where you live, or what you do...) Make photos private. Know who’s on your friends’ list. People can protect their children by taking advantage of the numerous barriers in place.
hmm good point. I don’t think the problem is with Flickr or Orkut, or other tools like guns, etc. I think the problem is always with people. There are nasty people out there and any decent person must protect themselves and their families. Isn’t it also cheaper to friend/privatize ones photos rather than go up against a major corporation that might end up in a long legal battle…
from Louisville, OH • Cocktail: White Russian
Exactly why all photos of my son are set to friends only, on Flickr and MySpace. My son may have been adopted, but I still don’t want whackjobs viewing his photos.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
I just read something on Flickr that made me frustrated enough I had to comment about it here.
All these Flickr members keep saying “it’s not fair! It’s not fair! If I have to go private, the pedophiles have won!” or whatever. Why is it such an inconvenience to make photos of your CHILD, your only flesh and blood, private? I would think you would go out of your way to protect them instead of complaining about how it’s not fair.
Yes, it’s not fair! It’s NOT fair. But this isn’t fair… this is the INTERNET.
I understand that everyone loves the Flickr community. I love it, too. I’ve met great people and I love sharing with new friends. But, why is it that because it’s the Internet, the standard rules of life don’t seem to apply?
I also love my city. I love the people in it, too. I live in a great community. Would I go down to the corner and leave my kid standing there unprotected because I trust that the community won’t steal my child? No, I won’t. because it’s MY KID and MY KID is MY responsibility.
It sucks I can’t leave my door unlocked at night, too, but are we rioting in the streets about it? No, we lock our doors.
Again, I’m not defending these digusting people who steal and not making your kids photos private doesn’t make you a bad person, but why is no one claiming responsibility for their own kids? It’s your choice to make them public.
I’m sure these people are all great parents. This is not a judgment on their parenting. But if someone is SO inconvenienced, if it will disrupt their Flickr experience so much to set their kids’ photos to “private” that says to me, “I would rather be popular on Flickr than protect the photos of my child.” And I know that isn’t a popular opinion, but that’s how it comes across when you get down to it.
from 7th Circle of Hell
I have probably hundreds (if not thousands) of pictures of my son on Flickr. And unless you know me or are my family? You don’t get to see ‘em. Simple as that.
Fair? WTF does THAT mean? Is it FAIR that there are pedophiles that would love to look at my little boy? Hell no! But that’s why I password protect his pictures - and make sure he doesn’t go to the park alone, either. Sheesh.
from Finland
Oi. I guess I’m the only one disagreeing. I know it’s a long leap from one to the other, but this “don’t put it out there and not expect anyone to steal it” sounds an awful lot like “don’t dress up in slutty clothing lest you want to get raped - we know that’s not fair, but the world is not all fluff and kittens...”
I also don’t get how being a professional photographer should make you more entitled to have your photos protected. It’s not either “being a professional” or “wanting to share photos with close family & friends” - there are many who bought their first DSLR and want to learn and get better and many of them happen to have kids - you look after your kid and practice photography at the same time, convenient :D You want feedback on your progress, or you just want to show off a cute moment - it’s not fair for people to take that and make it “their own”, and just because it’s next to impossible to prevent theft doesn’t mean we should just bend over, so to speak. At least that is my stance, and I post many pictures of my daughter for many reasons.
It wouldn’t be fair for an artist to have someone claim their art as theirs, whether the painting is of their dog or their child, and no one is telling people to stop painting and stop showing it off. Why should it be ok with photography?
Although I do agree there is a good way and a bad way to draw attention to this.. I can’t even imagine what a good way would be since this seems like a lost cause anyway, so all you really can do is be really pissed off all the time.
I hope that didn’t come off as trollish =/ This is just a topic that really gets to me - and not because anyone has stolen my pictures (that I know of, at least), and not because I’m worried about perverts. It’s just plain copyright infringement and it bothers me.
from West Palm Beach, FL • Cocktail: Champagne Bellini
No one is saying people who put photos of their children DESERVE what they get. And a woman who dresses like a tramp doesn’t DESERVE to get raped nor should she. Far from it. But these are people’s CHILDREN. Children have no choice. They rely on their parents to protect them from the world and *gasp* from the Internet.
Does it suck? It does...mightily. Should it stop? Yes.
Will it? You’re living in a dreamland filled with puppies and rainbows and unicorns who shit candy corn.
Should people try to stop it? YES.
What I don’t understand, is why anyone is SURPRISED.
Copyright infringement bothers everyone. And I surely am not going to stop designing websites just so people have nothing to steal. But you bet your ass I won’t post public pictures of my child.
from Finland
I’m not surprised. Not one bit.
I didn’t imply that Joelle was implying that people are getting what they deserve when a picture is stolen, but the analogy was just too close to pass up. It seemed to me that she was surprised by the fact that people get really really upset and pissed off when it happens, even though they know the risks.
If someone took my girl’s picture and did something with it, used it on a website or photoshopped it for amusement, no it wouldn’t surprise me, but you bet your ass I’d be really really pissed off. And you bet your ass people would hear me grumble about it. And I guess Joelle stumbled on some people who did indeed get really pissed off because it happened to them.
“Will it? You’re living in a dreamland filled with puppies and rainbows and unicorns who shit candy corn. “ (You mean the fluff and the kittens and stuff? :D )
No, I’m totally aware that this is impossible to prevent, which is why I stated that all I really can do is feel pissed off about this - just don’t YOU get surprised by my anger if someone steals what is mine, whether it be a picture of my toenail OR my daughter.
from Michigan
I am on flickr and myspace, and I use both of those sites to keep in touch with my sister/brother-in-law who live out of town. We share pictures and stories and wahtnot and keep in touch.
I have pictures on both sites of my niece that are all F&F;only. I have them protected. Why? Because someone with a username like footfetish69 or something marked her photo as a favorite, and that was enough for me. My sister is on flickr and has the same protections on her photos. Its just the way it goes.
And I don’t mind making any of my friends and family have to log in to see something I post. I think that on most websites nowadays you have to login, and this shouldn’t be different. Set your computer to auto-login and it won’t be an issue at all.
The bummer is in “meeting” new online friends. I am always reluctant to initiate an online friendship or anything because there are so many freaks out there. I dont’ ever want someone to think that’s me. But the bottom line is, without that person have some sort of public information, I wouldnt’ be able to be friends with them anyway. I think having to make everything private does make it more difficult to develop new friendships. But that is just the inevitable consequence.
I do agree with you about it. I think it is sick and wrong that people would steal anyone’s images (or designs or anything else) online. Especially kids. But the problem is not exclusive to orkut. It is exclusive to the internet.
Who knew I had so much to say on the matter?
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@Gry: First of all, I didn’t consider you trollish and I appreciate your opinion. I TOTALLY do not agree with the rape analogy and I’m pretty sure that’s what sent Kathy off. Because it rubbed me wrong, too.
But it’s all fine.
However…
When did I ever imply that?? How many times can I say, “I know how pissed off you must be.” and how about that part where I say that our designs are stolen all the time, so I know how they feel. I’m not SURPRISED they’re mad about it, but that doesn’t make it any less their choice.
Also, if you read my post again, you’ll see I never said anything about professional photographers being the only ones who can protect their photos. I said professional photographers are in a bad position because they HAVE to show photos publicly in order to get business. I also said I know a professional photographer who went through the proper channels to protect the images she takes, i.e., copyrights, etc.
So again, I never said what you thought I said. I agree that everyone has a right to have their photos generally protected under copyrights. But a copyright won’t make your kid any safer, do you see what I mean?
Here’s a cheesy way to look at it: I often take photos of my pedicures. I get SO MANY foot fetishists who openly wank it to my foot photos. I get emails about it. Have I stopped posting them? No. I tried making then private, but that seemed dumb. They’re just my feet. So, I said, “Alright, these guys into feet are going to enjoy themselves no matter what, all I can do is hope they don’t tell me about it.” And if they do? I block them immediately.
It seemed silly to go to great lengths to protect pictures of my feet. They’re JUST my feet. Do I want strangers whacking off to my feet? No, no I don’t. Can I do anything about it other than set my photos to private? No. And not doing so is my choice.
from West Palm Beach, FL • Cocktail: Champagne Bellini
No one said people can’t be angry. But my point, and I’ll say it again once more with feeling:
These are children. They don’t have any control over what you do with their photo. It’s up to the parent to decide what is safe and what is not. And if you are comfortable with posting your kid on Flickr? Then fine, go to town!.. that is your choice to do so. But it’s our choice to roll our eyes when people have a hissy over stolen images of their children.
If this were about people stealing photos of a toenail. Well then get angry all you want...hell, I’ll get angry with you. I’ll egg Orkut’s HOUSE for you. But when it comes to kids then I have to lean on the side of parental responsibility.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@Tina: I totally hear you.
@Gry: I just wanted to add again that I welcome your opinion.
Also, I totally DO think it’s fine for them to be really, really mad. I’d be absolutely livid. I also don’t think anyone should bend over. I never said that either. I said that people should do something about it… through proper channels. But if it were me with kids, I’d set my photos to private.
@Kathy: Testify.
from Finland
I think we need to egg Orkut anyway, just for existing.
My last words on the matter
~
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@Gry: hahahaha! I’d be ok with that.
from West Palm Beach, FL • Cocktail: Champagne Bellini
*eggs*
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
*sniffs* I love the smell of healthy blog debate in the morning!
It’s so refreshing to have a real discussion that doesn’t involve anyone calling me a whore. It’s the little things…
from Houston • Cocktail: Mango Mojito
Dude. My name is Chocolate?!?! CHOCOLATE?!
from West Palm Beach, FL • Cocktail: Champagne Bellini
Whore.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@Ms. Pants: hahaha! Yeah,I found that odd, too. I guess that’s what was actually doctored up on one of the stolen images that displayed on Orkut. I guess pervs like people named “Chocolate”. *shudder* gross, huh?
from Finland
Yeah, personally I’d go with “Caramel”. But that’s just me..
Chocolate is just so.. yesteryear!
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@Kathy: I knew you were going to do that. LOL!
Besides which, that kid is as Vanilla as they come. Ain’t no Chocolate in that blonde girls’ ancestry at all.
from Okla-effing-homa
Joelle, I got the impression that the “turf war” type comments were meant to inspire action. Flickr is a community--I’ve got plenty of friends on flickr and feel as involved in the site as many others do with social networking sites. If you can bank on that sense of “these are my friends” to get people’s asses moving, then why wouldn’t you? I mean, I get your “West Side Story” analogy (made me laugh out loud), but if I were in the position to rally my contacts up about my cause, I’d probably do the same thing.
from Boston
I couldn’t agree more. My kid’s pictures on Flickr are F & F only - not that that makes them 100% safe but it makes me feel better knowing that a tiny subset of the Flickr/internet community has access to images of my daughter.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@Nat: i know that Flickr is a community and I also have lots of friends on flickr. It’s not that I don’t understand that they want their friends to help them. I get that. I totally get that it’s a way to rally around, I just don’t agree with this particular tactic. I like Flickr, too. I spend time there, too and maybe I’m not as popular or as involved in the photography experience as some, but I do appreciate that it’s a community. I appreciate that.
My real issue is that many people seem to have this deluded perception that because it’s the internet, nothing bad should happen, that the basics of general society don’t apply.
You know what i mean? It’s not that I begrudge them their right to get rootin’ tootin’ hoppin’ angry. Riot in the streets if they want… go to town. Get Yosemite Sam on their asses. But no one is forcing them to choose “public”.
If the subject matter were anything but kids, I’d be right there with them. Flowers? Chickens? Nudity? Garden Gnomes? Nude Garden Gnomes? Fine. I totally think that no one should ever have their photos stolen. But in my opinion, the protection of my own child should supercede whatever I think is fair. I don’t deny them the fight… I personally just feel priorities are a little skewed.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
Also, when you’re a Jet, you’re Jet all the way. *sashay*
from New Jersey, USA
That’s exactly why I do not put photos of my son on my site.
from Bris Vegas, Australia
I’ve actually been debating this kind of thing amongst myselves, do I allow photos of my daughter to be publicly viewed or do I keep them to friends and family only? Like the first commenter I have a lot of family who live interstate and would like to view her photos but don’t want to create a flickr account. In the end I decided to allow public viewing, though I’m changing my mind.
I wholeheartedly agree with you by the way. When you become an adult you get to make choices and understand that those choices have consequences. If you don’t like the consequences don’t do something.
from San Diego, CA • Cocktail: slightly dirty Grey Goose martini
@Bec: Amen, sister!
from Philly
Geez, Joelle.....don’t you know by now that people *LIKE* it in their nothing-bad-can-ever-happen bubbles? I’m paranoid anyway so I always kept my daughters photos private on flickr, unless - I admit it - they were from a distance and/or you couldn’t make out her face......over the summer, though....I just had to make them all private, it bugged me too much, too many weirdos around :-\ Not to be a snot or anything - and I’m very sorry that the whole thing is happening - it just seems to me that this is another case of parents wanting the rest of the world to be responsible for their children.